The best of the biggest

It may strike some as unusual for me to say this, but despite her org's tendencies to miracle-monger, Ammachi is about the best you can do for a big-time guru. You can attend her events without ever having to hear a pitch. I didn't in any of my three visits. She's never appeared to be anything other than a humble yet action-oriented gal, albeit one surrounded by a thong of infantilized Americans. She put up big for the tsunami relief effort, but she's also got some histrionic employees who incited violence in the Green Avenue sign case of last year. My main beef with her now is her support for the Hinduvta, pretty much the equivalent of the white-identity movement in the States. This gets explained away as going with the local cultural flow, but like Sri Sri's failure to censure Modi, it's a stark hypocrisy that her American devotees have no idea about.

Please, you give her too much credit. She's one of the worst, precisely BECAUSE she is good at "appearing" a certain way and acting another.

> precisely BECAUSE she is good at "appearing" a certain way and acting another.

Unfortunately, I don't have any access to stories where she's acting outside of her normal behavior spectrum. Please provide some examples for us if you know of any.

Thanks for joining the board.

I am curious about how there can be such an extreme dichotomy between Ammachi and her followers. The meetings of hers I've gone to, she does seem simple, innocent and only interested in hugging people. And yet every one of her followers I met (I even dated one) seemed a bit 'off'.

They seem spacey... kind of that feeling you get around people trying to deny most parts of themselves as they force themselves into a mold of how kind, simple, charitable and spiritual they think they should be.

Wait a minute, I guess I answered my own question. For some reason all her followers think they should emulate Ammachi, however unnatural for them that is. Not sure if those in her organization try and get the followers to act that way, or if Ammachi demands it.

There is also the matter of her miracles, they are completely part of her public presentation. i.e. well produced videos, selling lots of crap at her Amma Stores (I'm waiting for the catalog) I've noticed her ashram promoting beauty workshops, for females , so god knows where that is going. And the idea that she is an incarnation of the divine Mother is totally promoted. Yes she provides a simple , pure, uncomplicated(haha) path spiritual wannabes , so there is just a big market for it and she has most of the bases covered. She's like MacDonalds, if you want an ok burger fast, they are there, just as Amma is there for those who want a pretty good Hindu Style Guru Fast. Obviously there is a huge gapping need for this stuff now, and the people who are the most honest business folks are probably the least harmful.
My one first hand anecdote is that i have a friend who follows Amma , and he has arguments with her swamis' over whether we have free will or not, they say we have absolutely none, at least they are discussing it! Have you looked at EX Amma Chat on yahoo?, I think it is an indicator of the guru business going mass market, and having the internet, more people will come out with their concerns.

> I guess I answered my own question.

You did, and it's a good answer.

> I think it is an indicator of the guru business going mass market

Is it even possible to be a mass-market guru? You can certainly go mass market, but are you really functioning as a guru?

Amma's miracle-mongering is very troublesome. It has probably been a more effective marketing tool in India, but doubtless many Westerners have fallen for it too.

But if I were to choose the big-time guru who seemed the most sincere, Amma is the one. In this world of Krackis and Sri Sris, that counts for something. There may be stories about Amma's behavior and attitude in private that I haven't heard yet, but until then, she's the best of the worst of those gurus who market their divinity.

Good to have you here, Yo.

I am curious about how there can be such an extreme dichotomy between Ammachi and her followers. The meetings of hers I've gone to, she does seem simple, innocent and only interested in hugging people. And yet every one of her followers I met (I even dated one) seemed a bit 'off'.

I've lived in spiritual ashrams myself. I noticed that it's one thing when the full-blown true-believer devotees are amongst themselves... and quite a different face is presented to relative outsiders who come by for brief visits to see the show.

For example, it may be that among the Ammachi hard-core, there's a hugely dogmatic shared belief-system that Ammachi is the Supreme Lord Herself, Absolute Perfect Love Personified (yada yada). This gives a special spiritually elevated status to everyone and everything in Amma's orbit (an consequently devalues every life experience perceived as outside said orbit). It requires all sorts of crazy mental gymnastics to maintain an unquestioned complete faith. The point is: the group-think may be rooted in subtle signals and jargon etc shared among the insiders, and it may be far far less visible to someone who just drops by and sees Ammachi hugging folks on a stage.

The effect of the Amma org, in the type of people it attracts and how it affects them once they join, is based on a complex dynamic of group interactions, belief, lifestyle, and the entire atmosphere of the ashram or travelling show. It's presented as if everything is an effect of Amma's personal magic or energy or some such, but it's much more complicated than that. The dynamics within the Amma family may include all sorts of swirling desires and fears and superstitions that aren't under the control of any single person, including the guru herself.

"it may be that among the Ammachi hard-core, there's a hugely dogmatic shared belief-system that Ammachi is the Supreme Lord Herself, Absolute Perfect Love Personified (yada yada)"

Yeah I can believe that and have seen it in the followers of hers I have interacted with. What is interesting is that she does attract people susceptible to that mentality -- since the woman I dated was only in her org for a month and was already acting like those in there for years.

Could it be that most of the current Indian gurus are all more flakey, more dogmatic, and attract more flakey followers, than the eastern-inspired western spiritual gurus? If so, that is an interesting shift.

I am of Indian descent, so maybe I should hurry up and get enlightened and take back sanity for the home team :-)

I am a long time devotee of amma, I have spent months in India at the ashram in amritapuri with my two children. I've been on many tours and retreats every year since 1998 in the US and in india though never on staff. I've been a regular at MA center events during the year when Amma is not there. I love amma. And love being with her, but I have had one major concern since she predicted publicly in Rhode Island in 2004 that disaster would strike in 2005 either man made or natural Amma's prediction inspired 100's of people to ask her weather or not they should move from where they are living or other questions about there personal safety including myself. This wave of questions then needed to be adressed publicly by amma and swami amritaswarupananda to let everyone know they should prey to amma and do there spiritual practices to avert it, that, in this way we can avert it and do not take any action like moving to another country or state to stay put.

I had never known amma to make these kinds of predictions and was desturbed because this is the big red flag for me. many manipulative spiritual teachers, a few come to mind....Jim jones, heavens gate, and now a guy in texas who says nuclear disaster for the world will occur ,well, two days from today June 12th 2008. never mind he had the same prediction
for 2006 and 2007

though Amma's prediction was earlier than expected (Dec 27, 2004) most devotees believe that the tidal wave that hit her ashram and may parts of asia killing 10's of thousands was her prediction and some have said that amma said it was. OK so far I can deal with a little disaster prediction, after all wars and global warming seem to be at hand many disasters happen every year and it did hit her home.

now I am going to say something that I did not here from amma herself, but a long time devotee who works tierlessly for her, living in india, a renuciate and on staff for US tour every year for the last few years doing important work for her, that, bring in alot of donations. he/she is not one of the crazy people around her and very dedicated. I want to keep him/her annonmous for obvious reasons

this devotee came up to a group of long time devotee's and reported that Amma had told a group of devotee's in seattle a few days before that..... well here goes:
"2010 2011 prediction... mass starvation and enviromental destruction. world war III would be better, and, no child under the age of 5 would reach child bearing age.
this was disturbing to me to say the least. I felt sad about it and asked for clarity he said the same thing over again. and I asked if she said we could do anything about it he said become a vegitarian and do spiritual practices. that we need to work fast for realization before it's too late." I thought it must be a trick to get lazy meditators motivated.
the suprising thing is he has a child about that age and did not seem concerned rather that he seemed excited to know what was happening next. it seems that this devotee has really acheived a level of detatcment that amma herself would envy. I am in the prosess of confirming these statements. so far LA satsang has denied it that all they said she said was there would be hard times ahead or something to that effect.
the weird thing too is that the rumers I heard in early 2004 about the first prediction was also denied in a similar way. It took almost a year for her to address it in the 2004 Rhode island retreat. and I have noticed that this (telling a few of the inner circle of devotee's then of course it spread like wild fire as rumers and gossip do around her.
The same was true with the I Am meditation technique it was a rumer for about a year before swamaji invited a group of interested devotees to here a talk that he gave to introduce IAm meditaion. Everyone allready knew about it. the first group was taught the technique in india just before, and, part of the 50th birthday celebration. Where for the first time she made a open invitation for all to come and actually that she wanted everyone of her devotees to come. Normally, or, the tradition is, to ask her personally prior to going to amritapuri As I did the the 3 times I went there.
one last thing i Know for a fact is that the MA center ashram has purcased a wapping $10,000
worth of rice to be stored for disaster. Ok thats harmless except for the fact that hoarding food is one of the reasons for skyroceting food prices around the world which is part of the reason for the predicted mass starvation.
and thats a lot of rice. likely 20,000 lbs

Anony (2008-06-12 21:16 p.m.) wrote...
> I don't understand where she is coming from either because Im not enlightened

Making the claim "I'm not enlightened" implies that you understand what "enlightened" is (otherwise, how could you know that you haven't got it?). Better not to hold ideas about "enlightenment," and not make unsupported claims like this.

Anony (2008-06-12 22:23 p.m.) wrote...
> It still amazes me that Amma is allowed off the hook and instead her followers
> are the nutcases. Amma tells her followers to worship her as god. [snip]
> So who;s responsible?

Each person is responsible for how they keep their own minds. Each person who believes that Amma has a special "god" status will themselves receive the blowback from holding such a belief. As in the political world, in the meditation world also it's best for us common people to take responsibility for our own decisions. When we talk to Amma followers, it's best to focus on their own choice to be a believer, rather than to hold Amma or anyone else responsible.

Anony (2008-06-13 17:05 p.m.) wrote...
> Amma DOES know what her devotees think. I am a professional and respected
> in my field of expertise and have experienced her divinity first hand.
> i doubt that people who reach a certain level of success in their professional
> and public live are THAT deluded.

Open your eyes just a little, pay attention to what goes on in the world... and you'll EASILY find mountains of evidence that people can be rich, educated, successful -- and still be damn crazy (at least in particular compartments of their minds/lives). Plenty of successful people have murdered family members, or perpetrated scams. Plenty have sunk into addiction, or violence, or rank superstition. The fact that someone has professional success most certainly does NOT indicate that their sanity is intact. So if Amma has a bunch of successful professional followers, it means pretty much nothing.

A great deal of Amma's following comes from people with a tendency towards sheep-like following of autorities or crowds. Isn't that precisely what Anony is saying? That when we see a number of successful professional people doing something (following Amma, believing in horoscopes, supporting racial bigotry, etc), we can short-circuit our own intelligence and just follow along blindly... because surely if a bunch of people who look superficially sane and act with authority believe it, it's safe to follow along.

Stuart
http://stuart-randomthoughts.blogspot.com/

2010 2011 prediction... mass starvation and enviromental destruction

We can say with confidence that in the future, each of individually will die, and also the species and planet won't last forever. It may or may not happen in 2010 or 2011, but is that really the important thing? The fundamental point is: everything appears and disappear, and all we can or should do is try to act with clarity and compassion in THIS moment.

You have made an ASSUMPTION that Amma does alot of good in the world. That Her charities help lots of people.
ONE QUESTION..... Have you checked out the organizations financial breakdown? Have you scutinized her charities like you would others?
No one questions and those who do will not be heard.
go online to all her schools and her hospitol. see if there is anyway to apply for scolorships, grants or free medical services. Pretend your a poor indian. As far as I can tell at this point, she is taking money from us and building an empire in india. She is charging western prices to rich indians and very little is given to the poor.

What is given is the free labor of devotees.....they build the houses they work in the institutions. Amma charges for all the schools ( 1 year of nursing school with room and board is 119,000Rs 5ooRs just for the application fee That's $4,000 USD) only wealthy indians can afford it. Poor indians cannot afford the application fee!

I here she brings in 200 million a year that (still trying to get the Numbers from the ashram) that makes her 46 million for rebuilding her ashram and village surrounding her a good investment in her own empire. and the 1 million she gave to Bush for katrina looks like a pay off to run her mission here in the USA. But what do I know, god works in strange ways.

The hospitol (I've been there)is not being run like a charitable one. At the websight there is a vague discripion of some remote medical camps, plenty of ways to donate time and money. but as one page says " here we try to keep costs down" and "no one will be
discharged from the hospitol unless their bill is paid in full". and goes on to say....After payment is made the discharge nurse will release the patient.

Remember this hospitol gets most if not all equipment, medication, doctors and labor to run the place for free. but I have only given her about $16,000 over the past 10 years for retreats, tours, jewlery etc. (Prosanon, Satya and other Joytish experts at the ashram tell, basically, everyone I know who has seen them, that they need this or that saphire stone or a puja depending on their chart. If you buy the stone (mine was $2,500) and then you give it to her in the darshan you will recieve automatically all the bennefits the stone was supposed to give. And we all know that it is then re-sold and we don't mind becuse, of course, she gives it all to the poor and of course she is the mother of the universe. I found myself looking proudly for the stone to be back on the shelf. I don't know if it sold yet. (as I stopped shopping there a couple years ago)But just think how much could be made off just one stone!!!!!!!!Maybe I'll get ten times the karma points. It is also known that rich indian business men don't want everyone knowing they have a Guru so they will buy the most expensive stone and go right up afterwards and give it to her in the darshan line. (That's the story that Satya told me) Most of us also feel we should get every indian item we want from her ashram because others who sell the same thing (for less)could be cotaminated with bad energy. because it was commercially sold.

If you are a devetee why not question? They are after all claiming that she is the highest of the high. seems to me that all the devotee's I know (alot of them here and in india)will question nothing for long. A little reassurance from a swami or Amma herself is all that is ever needed Then, many of us will not admit we questioned in the first place. We don't want anyone to know! at least not Amma or her devotees.

Amma family may include all sorts of swirling desires and fears and superstitions that aren't under the control of any single person, including the guru herself.[/quote]

Amma knows very well what is in her books.... all of the belief and superstitions I have heard are put forth in her books all of which I have read.

the least of which is from her biography which tells the story of her brother harassing a devotee who has come to see her. Amritaswarupananda (the Author) says when the woman reported the abuse to Amma in darshan Amma stands up with her trident and proclaims " who ever has commited this act of abuse will be die in 7 days. Then he goes on to say that her brother hearing of Ammas curse commits suicide. they say he was depressed because he had elephantitis.

I wonder where my own worry of what devotees or subtle beings might do to me if I speak about what I see there.

What of all the people who are afraid of those subtle beings that protect her. I have heard directly from amritaswarupananda that amma says there are a host of subtle beings that come in spirit form to get amma's darshan in the temple. And then Amma says herself that she could never hurt anyone. Amma only feels commpassion for her devotee's but she says quoted from the book:" just as human beings have intense love for Mother numerous subtle beings love her as well. If somebody attemts to harm Mother, Mother does not react. Mother faces such a person without any exitment and doesn't even think any harmful thought regarding him who acts out of ignorance. But, these subtle beings get angry and take revenge. Do you understand how this is? Suppose someone's mother is attacked by a man. Do the chilren sit back indifferent? Even if their mother tries to stop them they find that man and take revenge." From:Mata Amritanandamayi a biography bottom of page 145 Indian publication. There are subtle beings that can kill because they protect her? she attributes her cusins death (who apparently tried to kill her, and who she apperantly forgives and nurtures in the hospitol before his death)to subtle beings.

If you don't feel this is a powerful message purpatrated by the ashram wait till you leave THE CULT and you may realize that these subtle or no so subtle beings (devotees) may be motivated to silence you. This feeling came up for me. very stong only a few days ago when I left knowing I would never return.