Sadhguru and the Isha Foundation

Happyd... During those 3 years at Isha, have you ever interacted directly with JV? If yes, what was it about?

I had 3 limited interactions with JV.
 
1 - I asked him a question during one of the first classes.  At first, his answer was nebulous and generalized towards everyone there, looking out at all the participants. But as he talked more, he looked directly at me and responded more toward me personally. It became awkward for me as he talked at me - patronizing - and telling me to do and not do things as if he magically knew what I was or was not doing in my life. To the other participants, I am sure he appeared to be all-knowing, peering into my poor helpless soul. I was quite nerved down and did not rebut him...also realizing it would be a wasted attempt, probably making me look defensive and making him look more right. This is his style. Very few people challenge him. He has the gift of arguement, as well as a captive audience.
 
This was troublesome to me, the first red flag if you will. But I was so enamored with him, that I made excuses in my own mind to justify his comments to me. He was so far off the mark I almost laugh thinking about it now! Truly, if he was any sort of mystic with true 'knowledge' of his followers (which he claims to have), he would not have said to me what he did.
 
2 - During an outside activity, one of the participants told me she was getting dizzy. I was volunteering. It was pretty clear to me that she was about to faint. Even though they don't like the participants leaving the activities, I pulled her out of the group and walked her towards a chair asking another volunteer to get her water. Just as I got her to a chair, she fainted.  She came back around and we gave her water. The other volunteers were trying to get her back into the activity! I was taking her pulse when JV came over. He looked at her, sprayed water in her face and said to me...'she's fine.'  She was sweating, spacey and her face was beet red. After JV left, I checked for temperature or pulse changes, keeping her in the shade to rest. But since JV told her she was fine another volunteer shooed me away and got her back into the activity. The volunteer explained away the fainting as the inablity of the girl to handle the high energy. I suppose the lack of food, lack of sleep, scorching heat and running around a dusty ground had nothing to do with it. JV also practices medicine? Which would be strange as he was unable to foresee or assist his aunt who died of a mosquito sting. And he's unable to heal or protect himself as he has had a number of inpatient visits for 'mysterious sicknesses.'
 
3 - A brief interaction that's hardly worth mentioning. I just happened to be somewhere he was. Many devotees have told me I was 'lucky' or 'blessed' to have had this brief encounter. No exaggeration when I say JV's followers are no less crazed as the groupies of Elvis or the Beatles.
 
 
So...does he have the power or is the power given to him? And if you don't see his power...its your fault... or you have an ego...or a wall... or you can't surrender.... or just pick your own excuse.
 
 
 
 

The average follower rarely has access to JV.  There is a hierarchy - an inner ring and an outer ring.

The outer ring  - may have interaction with him if one is foolish enough to ask a question during a class session.

The inner ring - consists of those who have been around JV for a long time and those who are wealthy and/or powerful.

There are followers who live in the ashram for years and never get to speak with him. He most likely doesn't even know they exist unless they cause a problem. But if he needs someone because of their special skill (i.e., teachers, architects, etc), he will request they move to the ashram for their spiritual growth....a true privilege with its own bragging rights.
On the admission/questionairre forms, they ask your occupation and any special skills you have, just in case they may need your talents.

Yes I haven't done BSP. I know the overview of it. The main aim is to confuse your ego. When you have a strong ego and when it is threatened you would develope a sense of fear if you are not open. As I already said, I can't comment further as I don't have the experience. But, I do know at least one other instance (an investigator from the TN govt) who ran away from BSP because of this. He came to uncover (with an investigative mind) what is happening in BSP. When I commented, I said it was only my guess and I didn't say for sure. It is up to you to interpret my comments. 
As far as I know, no ISHAites does such things as you say. 

Vaidy,

Thanks for your response. With all due respect to your opinions,

I was very active in Isha for 3 years. I've seen and heard enough of what the devotees do and say.  I can provide details and more info if you need. There is no reason for me to make anything up. In fact, your last post has proven my point....you've placed yourself in the Isha Y group (the group that buys into and defends Isha/SJV)

And your comment....
All I can sense is that you have built a strong wall of self around you.. Hence, your ego is probably too afraid of breaking the wall..
How else can it be interpreted?

happyd,
'you have built a strong wall of self around you.. Hence, your ego is probably too afraid of breaking the wall..'

'Mind' and 'ego' are just words, labels we use to describe the sense we each have of a personal, separate existence. Neither mind nor ego exists in concrete, physical form.
Words and labels are language, a man-made system of metaphor that attempts to bridge the gap between two or more human beings. (or, with thoughts, between two or more conflicting impulses) Language is always inadequate because it is an approximation of a sense or feeling--it is never the sense or the feeling, it is a description. A description is as removed from the feeling as thoughts are removed from their unknown source.

Given that senses and feelings are fragile and fleeting and very sensitive, using violent and war-like metaphors for describing these, e.g. breaking, cracking, destroying mind or ego or self, will prove counter-productive and coarsening. It will also entrench the inner conflicts. Fine, if you don't mind gambling with your sanity but mental incapability does not help in any endeavour. 
If you really want to know your mind, treat it with respect, like a friend and choose friendlier metaphors. Like a good friend, it will repay your trust and care.

The guru gains his power by fostering and manipulating the inner conflicts of his followers until they are confused enough to hand over their own power to him. He never has anything more than this. There is nothing more than this to be had.
I think you have already grasped this, happyd

Ellen ... You say Mind is just a word. Again you say "If you really want to know your mind....". What is there to understand which does not exist. Mind has no existence... it's just collection of thoughts. Soul has existence. That’s what is to be understood … not the mind.

Unless a person studies himself … no guru can help. That too gurus like JV… no way!

If you really want to know your mind, treat it with respect, like a friend and choose friendlier metaphors. Like a good friend, it will repay your trust and care.

That’s what is taught at places like ISHA… it will just make you feel good.

Happyd ...

So...does he have the power or is the power given to him? And if you don't see his power...its your fault... or you have an ego...or a wall... or you can't surrender.... or just pick your own excuse.

This is the punch line... it explains everything!

Hi Happyd

You might be right. I can't comment further as I don't have the real experience. Even if I have, I don't think I can comment on her experience for sure. I'll share my experience once I do BSP.

Hi,

I believe, your understanding of a guru is not up to the mark. It is not required to have a physical interaction for you to grow spiritually. If you can feel connected with the guru, he will be there to help you in the growth whenever it is needed. 

As far as I have read, a guru is very very important in the real liberation of any individual. As you might know, there are two types of karma - Praraptha and Sanchitha. It is your duty to burn the Praraptha karma (the one to be burnt in this birth) and the guru takes care of the sanchitha karma - He burns it when you are about to die. So, don't understimate the importance of a guru.

Hi,

I think you have missed the whole point. ISHA is like any other organization. No one is perfect in our world. If the volunteers are doing things to get noticed, then their level of awareness is not up to the mark. Your duty is to bring yourself up. You only need to feel connected with the guru and do your sadhanas with maximum possible awareness. What you are trying to do is comparing yourself with others! Spirituality is not about rat racing!

Hi,

I was quite nerved down and did not rebut him 

My first impressions after reading the above is that the above is merely an expression of your ego!

I just want to comment on your first experience of asking a question. Yes, Sadhguru almost always retorts back at you pretty harshly. Even I thought he was always against everyone and anyone. But, it took me time to understand that most of the things that he does is to shake your ego.

ytseekmystic,
I am not contradicting you but specifically addressing the issues Happyd originally raised, which were his valid observations, using his critical faculties, that the priority in Isha is something other than the spiritual welfare of the participants. 

Our critical mind is as much 'that' as much 'godgiven' as much 'awareness' as everything else. How can it not be? Or is 'oneness' only  'oneness' when the critical faculties are hypnotised and shut down? All is not All if one part is excluded.

It is certainly easier to experience visions and bliss when the critical mind is shut down, these big time flimflams count on that, and stories of these 'experiences' are the social proof that bring in the punters and the big bucks.
We need good critical discrimination to sort out the flimflams from the ones who might have something to offer. We need it to look critically at the 'experiences', we need it to move past the experiences, we need it before we get in too deep with a fool. Happyd needs it--that is my point.

My point regarding the language used was not to encourage a feel-good vibe. It's great if you feel good but no-one feels good all the time- anyone claiming that, no matter how 'realised', is lying.
Its just that when you use the terminology of force it becomes a habit to view the inner conflicts as a battle, a fight between opposing forces. The objective of this spiritual search is to seek something, there is no point in battering this thing to death before you find it.

Friendlier metaphors, if you are going to use metaphors--and as thinking beings we have only metaphors (even Ramana's THAT is a metaphor for the unknowable) --do not add extra grief to the already inevitable struggle. And it is a struggle, a guru who says otherwise is a con artist. A friendlier metaphor does not wipe out the struggle, it just does not increase the struggle the way that the language of force tends to do.

I agree that the work and study can only be done by the person themselves. A good teacher cannot give anything except some good directions, a good example and some support in the struggle. 

Ellen,
the sentence:
'you have built a strong wall of self around you.. Hence, your ego is probably too afraid of breaking the wall..'
 
was made by Vaidy. I responded to this statement because it was used to judge Wesslea and her experience at BSP.

Vaidy,
I already mentioned in my post that I allowed SJV to publicly ridicule me, taking it like a champ and even questioning myself.  I look back now and laugh at myself. If you want to call that ego and brand it as something bad... go ahead. But just like you, I made excuses for his comments, tone and manner in which he spoke to me as well as others. Justifying his approach and comments as "something we need to shake our ego". The guru knows best right? 

Don't forget, I made excuses for all the red flags that popped up...staying in Isha for years. Sounds like you are making excuses too, agreeing with things you have read or heard that fit your idea of reality. 

I'm not sure where the ego definition gets crossed. I'm online admitting how I was duped for years, losing faith in myself and accepting someone else's idea of reality.

I never said anything about "rat-racing" so I can no comment that part of your post. But I was referring to the tendencies of Isha-ites feeling superior to others inside and outside of the group.

Yes, study of the self!  Both Ytseekmystic and Ellen mention it (thanks). Semantics aside, I think you guys are saying similar things.

People are so quick to judge other people's experiences as right/wrong, real/not real. But how many people look at and question their own experiences? So if I have a mystical experience, it must be real? Even SJV says physical experiences should be questioned - every physical sensation we have (sight, sound, touch, etc) is filtered through our mind, social beliefs, world views, etc. I happen to agree with this. We establish what is real based on comparing our experience to what we already believe or have been taught.

How would internal non-physical experiences be any different? Isha people keep saying "experience him and you will know." Again, this is a common claim used by devotees around the world following thouisands of different masters, gurus and god-men. Many people 'sit in the grace of SJV's presence' and feel nothing. So, it must be their ego or the wall that gets in the way, right?

Like I've said in an earlier post, I've had my fair share of earth-shaking experiences in and out of Isha. So, do I get to claim they are real? Why can't I question them? Many people see the Virgin Mary in a piece of toast. Is that experience any more real than an Isha-ite's experience of Shiva? Depends on who you believe or which book you agree with.

I've been collecting devotee experiences and testimonials from many different groups. Mostly to understand the group dynamics that hold people in the sway of the master, as well as understand my own experiences. Interesting, there really is nothing new or different with how these leaders control thier followers and how the followers justify their bondage to the master. I will be posting a few examples on here.

Happyd,

My question is - "why are you bothered about what another volunteer thinks?". To me it looks like you are trying to compare yourself with others. This is what I termed as "rat racing".  

See, I do agree with you guys that you can use your mind to attain liberation. This is what J Krishnamurthi did. ISHA's way is different and traditional. As far as union with the cosmos (or simply put enlightenment) is concerned, you can either attain it in vishubthi, agna (I believe this is what JK attained) or sahasrahara (I guess this is the ISHA way). 

happyd,
Sorry for the misunderstanding re my attributing the statement to you. An oversight on my part.
My screen view cuts off the names of the posters on the left so some confusion about who writes what for me.