Sadhguru and the Isha Foundation

Happyd,

 'Depends on who you believe or which book you agree with.'
 
Also depends to a greater extent on what you need to believe and agree with at any particular time. Different people face different challenges throughout life and personally I don't query anyone's need to believe in a particular way. Beliefs are something that we construct to try to explain the world to ourselves and they can allow us to navigate through some difficult times with reasonable equanimity.

I see beliefs as always provisional, when you begin to see through them you have outgrown the need for them and need to find a better, more fitting (as in fitting you better) explanation. All the various practices can be helpful in calming the mind. They are all to some degree hypnotic, if only from the repetition. Nature never repeats itself, every expression of the natural world is a unique expression so trying to impose rigid beliefs on myself or others is doomed to fail.

It doesn't ever change the underlying truth, that we all come from the same source, that no person is a saint or special in any way unless he can get a lot of others to declare him special.

Human nature doesn't change, we want to believe that there is a way out of our natural limitations and are willing to give power, money and exalted status to anyone who can convince us that he has the magic answer we need to transcend our limitations. The 'magic' gets more subtle and hard to spot but its still all smoke and mirrors.
A creative imagination is a wonderful thing but you also need to keep your feet on the ground. I'm not a believer but my favourite proverb is an arabic one:
'Trust in god but tie up your camel.'
 
 
 

That's the point...

ISHAites will criticize any faith on the earth… but they can’t take back anything.

In Indian tradition, Guru is placed before GOD… because he is the one who showers unconditional love on the disciple and also takes responsibility for his spiritual growth… I am talking about the REAL enlightened masters. JV says if does not work for you … you can leave. Why there is such a clause if ISHA is the BEST (as JV and ISHAites claim), super JET speed way for enlightenment?

Vaidy... what are you coming to say? Be at ISHA... don't bother about anything, that is, don't bother about people around you, don't bother whether JV is enlightened or not, don't bother whether JV ridicules you, don't bother if you have any experiences (you can't believe your mind, as per JV), don't bother about people who faint because they can't withstand the overflowing energy from JV? don't bother about the WEALTHY inner circle? don't bother about JV's Land Rover, Harley Davidson, and the palace he has built for himself at ISHA?

Happyd,
Yes you can claim that ISHA meditators are rat racing.. I am not questioning or denying that.. There is every possibility that they are... My point is why are you bothered about them? Is that of some significance to your life?

Guys,

I would like to narrate an incident that happened in J Krishnamurti's life. I assume you would agree that he was enlightened.
There was an young girl who was very closely following JK. Once, JK wanted to buy a Tie for himself. He went to a shop and spent 4 hours to select a tie. He has always done every act with consciousness and hence choosing a tie is no different for him. However, the girl thought that if a person is spending so much time in buying a simple tie (which is a pretty materialistic thing), then he is not enlightened. Hence, she left JK. The moral of the story is you can't judge enlightened people with ordinary logic. The same applies to sadhguru.  

Sadhguru is very practical. That's why he has always said that if the method doesn't work for you, you are free to leave. I don't see anything wrong in it. See, every individual is unique. Hence, not every one can follow ISHA or sadhguru or any technique for that matter. Even Nithyananda says so. I don't know what is there to refute here..

Then, I don't know if he has built a palace for himself. I am not bothered either. All I would do is I will sincerely see if I can feel connected with him doing my sadhanas for a reasonable amount of time. If not, I will move on to the next monastry/master without any complaints. 

Remember, Enlightenment is not about what you do but it is all about how you do it!

What's the purpose of writing in this forum about SJV or any other god-men if we don't bother about anything?

The reason I write on this site is to show the other side of the 'smoke and mirrors.'  Yes, as Ellen wrote...beliefs are a need. They will change so why defend or depend on them? The smoke and mirrors satisfy those who need them at that moment in their life but it is superficial and undependable. Your true nature will not change ....or even be seen...by following some one else you put on a pedestal.

The human condition -
We are so quick to pronounce the we know so much, defending our 'knowledge' with intensity and fancy words. (Knowledge being our beliefs, teachings and our experiences). Even juding others based on our limited mind.

Yet, we are so quick to pronounce there are gurus out there who know more than we do, have the 'way' and will make our lives better if we surrender to them. Even repeating their life stories, or preaching their sermons to justify why we follow these gurus.

These 2 traits are mutually exclusive.....what a dilemma.

"There was an young girl who was very closely following JK. Once, JK wanted to buy a Tie for himself..."

Vaidy...In which book did you find this info?

Happyd,
 
'These 2 traits are mutually exclusive.....what a dilemma'
 
Which is where the compassion comes in handy, for yourself first and then by extension for others.
I would ask myself if they really were mutually exclusive and look for examples (mundane and close to home) where a critical appraisal can co-exist with compassion for this very human dilemma.
 

Mystics Musings

Let me end this long discussion (from my side for now)... I have a feeling that ISHA and sadhguru are 100% genuine. Hence, I am planning to do full time volunteering and experience it myself.. I'll come back to this forum some time this month next year... Until then goodbye... 

They are only mutually exclusive when we practice them both at the same time.
Preaching and following.....Self-proclaimed knower and seeker.

Often, we teeter-totter between the two, adopting whichever serves our purpose at the current moment. But, still, within a time frame of a certain subject matter, (speaking here about gurus and god-men) we generally apply both at the same time.

Ex -   the missionaries, who try to convert others to his/her religion.
         the devotees, who try to convert others to his/her guru
         the new ageists, who give sermons on the law of attraction

Preaching a subject yet still following a teacher at the same time.

I'm not posting online to banter back and forth regarding the meaning of life and our purpose within it. I am not asking for advice on how to deal with my life or my questions regarding it. That is something we can only do for ourselves.

My point is to show the devotee-guru relationship as it pertains to Sadhguru...or any other guru for that matter. To point out the dilemma that automatically occurs when someone follows a guru, decides this is the right path (based on a subjective questionable experience) and tries to convince others they have found the way.

I ask myself, what is the motivation to recruit others into a belief system? This is why I just couldn't recruit people for Isha. In fact, very few people in my life even knew I was in Isha for so long. Yet it is considered a sadhana to recruit others into Isha. I guess I failed miserably with that sadhana... :)
many Isha followers can now argue that I didn't give myself fully to this sadhana, sabotaging my own spiritual growth.

Mystics Musings is Sadhguru's book.

I can not find the girl vs. tie story anywhere outside of Mystics Musings. Not to say that it is true or not. Only Sadhguru seems to know of this story.

However, J. Krishnamurti is quoted to say:

"Meditation is not a system, a practice, a discipline taught to you by another. It is not a repetitive formula of mantras, of breathing regularly, of sitting in a certain posture, practicing awareness, practicing attention - these are all utterly mechanical."

Anyone that has done Inner Engineering can see the contradiction JK vs. SJV. 

We can either interpret the meaning of JK or SJV's words to fit into our views.
Or, we can always fall back on the catch-all guru phrase... 'logical mind of the mere mortal can not understand the ways of the guru.'
How convenient.

Happyd
 
'I ask myself, what is the motivation to recruit others into a belief system? '
 
Safety in numbers? If I'm not sure in my own mind, repeating the induction to others helps solidify my shaky belief. If I can recruit friends and family it legitimises the new belief system, locks it in. It builds a self-reinforcing system and handily provides fresh meat and cash for the system. Once an organisation has more than about 10-12 members it has to expand to survive. At that point the health and continuity of the org becomes more important than the people in it--the ideology is more important.
I'd look more at who truly benefits--in cash terms-- than at what the motivation is. When you see where the money goes the motivation is clear.

Lots of reasons people recruit,  approval from the hierarchy, social proof, group cohesion, a closed world with easily recognised insiders and outsiders, a need to be right and special, to belong.
Most of them are well-intentioned and unaware of the extent to which their good intentions are being manipulated and used by others further up the food chain.

(Assuming it happened) If an Enlightened person spends 4 hours just to select a tie bothering about how he will look in front of others, a sane person MUST just walk away from him.

JV once told in an interview, if you carry the religious tag, people look down upon you. What kind of enlightenment is this... dressing your body/mind in a way that will attract a group!!

In ISHA's website, it is mentioned that it is a non-religious organization and the main deity there is Dhyana Linga. First of all, a person should have some honesty in life (JV told this in a discourse)... ISHA should first understand this.

Happd... have you ever come across this book : Lives in the shadow with J.Krishnamurti

Yes, but haven't read it.  It's about his intimate relationship with the author's mother, right?
 
 
And yes, it does seem odd.....
we unenlightened people are not supossed to 'bother' about the person searching 4 hours for the tie, 
but its ok for an enlightened person to 'bother' 4 hours over a tie?

Ellen,
 
Thanks for the great post....

I agree! So, In summary:
 
I recruit you = I legitimize my belief system = Yay! Now I'm right! (and you're wrong and you get saved/converted to my way of thinking)

Who does it benefit?  The ego, the wallet, the group.....but especially the leader!
 
 

Happyd,

An interesting thread on Rick Ross on Isha.

http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?12,59190,page=1

I begin to understand why you don't like the natural world references I made. One of the problems with these guys is that they betray trust, by using very commonplace and ordinary observations that any person can make and subtly usurping those ideas for their own agenda, putting them to use to undermine your trust in yourself, your own worldview and your external (to the ideology) relationships.
Hence the 'scientific' environmental and charitable concerns.

Ellen,
I also had the same problem as you with the left side of the screen cutting off in this forum. I stumbled across a fix.
Try checking 'Compatability View' under the Tools menu

And btw, I had no problem with your natural world references, regarding beliefs. I just added that people's true inner nature rarely changes while
following these gurus.

Another thing that 'bothers' me about Isha and guru-worship...
We are supposed to be giving up our sense of self, or ego if you will, in order to find divine bliss. But isn't it our self, or ego, that has determined which path to walk, or which guru to follow? Isn't it the ego that tells other people how wonderful his/her guru is and tries to recruit others to join? Isn't it the ego that defines 'spiritual experiences' as real and true without questioning them?

Happyd, 
'Isn't it the ego that tells other people how wonderful his/her guru is and tries to recruit others to join? Isn't it the ego that defines 'spiritual experiences' as real and true without questioning them?'

Too true. Without this mechanism, whatever it is, not one of us could think or say anything or plan any future action. We would be creatures bonded to and subject to the whim of our animal instincts only--( and easy fodder for anyone with a stronger, more integrated sense of self) --reason enough for me to avoid bad-mouthing ego. It's the same discriminating ego that eventually dismisses the 'spiritual' experiences as interesting but not lasting or particularly meaningful.

I found it helpful, once I'd recognised these properties and potentials of ego (and decided that there was no way I'd attempt to destroy them since they are what make us humans unique among animals) to find other words for it as the word itself carries enormous past assumptions, from Freud, religion and just general (usually derogatory) cultural meanings.

If you just look at the 'ego concept', (which is essentially the thought "I am this" or "I am that", "I am angry." "I am sad," "I am a genius," "I am a fool", whatever you call it, there is nothing to destroy. Everything and anything can be used either to hurt or to help. You don't need an expert to do this although it sometimes helps to have a trusted person to discuss things with to clarify and refine your own thinking.

Its like with beliefs, if you can see through it you can identify less with the concepts attached to the word and thought 'ego' (which are just passing thoughts, no concept or thought is ever set in stone) while still retaining the discriminating mind. This 'spiritual search' is about finding and understanding your own mind (a lifetime undertaking as it will always be with you) and by extension the general concepts and qualities of all minds since we all share the same human nature. The comparing and contrasting of the discriminating mind is vital to this in order to settle on your own values (which will inevitably modify and change with experience and living)

Mr Jaggi's starting point was just this, deciding he wanted to be a mystical guru with millions of devoted followers catering to his every whim. He used his previous business acumen (and canny knowledge of human nature, innate needs and desires) to fashion a workable business model--probably studying the Maharishi and Rajneesh examples-- and set the machine in motion. He knows his own mind ( or at least the greedy, power-hungry part of it ) I seriously doubt he has any interest or care in the minds or spiritual welfare of his followers.
Its all about him, only him and what his business model can bring him.

The practices can be used to relax (open?) the mind. Essentially this allows us to step outside of and so examine habitual, learned character armour, defenses, to a degree, which allows for a lessening of identification with the concepts of the ego. We each need to be in personal control of this as unscrupulous guru types need open, unwary minds when they are looking for power over others, people to control.