happyd's Blog

Re: Sadhguru and the Isha Foundation

Karthikshan,

My intention was not to scare you away from posting here.

I think you'll see many people online asking why devotees feel the need to defend their systems and beliefs. But you happened to be one we could ask.  :)

Looking around, most followers post (or talk about) all about their fabulous experiences, some with almost religious fervor, without any open communication allowed for someone else to ask questions about it. And if someone does ask questions, some devotees give not-so-nice responses, or they brush off the questioner as an ego-based person who has no true experience/knowledge. These are the things that concern 'the outsiders.'
Although, I'll admit it concerned me too while I was 'an insider.'

You're an insider, so just try it..... talk about Isha with another Isha member and see how comfortable they are when you raise a question about Isha or Sadhguru.

Now, whether Sadhguru is truly 'God on earth' or not is irrelevant. I think it's an important understanding of the human psyche on why we purposely close ourselves off to anything that may tip our idea of reality.

Btw, I don't know if meditation is important or not. I'm not against it in the sense of simple awareness. But there's a distinction between simple awareness and meditation practices.

Re: Sadhguru and the Isha Foundation

Karthikshan,

If I may be so bold as to address Sivakrdy's question into my post. I don't think he was questioning your freedom to comment in this forum. You are right, all posts are valued. My interpretation is that he is questioning the need of followers to justify their beliefs and practices by defending the master they follow. A quick google search turns up mostly angry and self-important posts defending Isha. Surely, if someone is so content and happy with their situation, why the need to defend it?

 
For example (please forgive my love of metaphor)...

Let's pretend I take a vitamin every day that I believe helps me deal with life or makes me happy. I go online and research the vitamin to see if I can buy it locally. Or maybe I'm looking for a local group where we can get together and all take the vitamin together. But instead, I come across a forum called vitaphiliac that has people online 1) questioning the efficacy of the vitamin,  2) questioning the intent of the vitamin company, 3) discussing the millions pocketed by the vitamin company which claims itself a charity to bypass our country's tax laws (but, hey, they planted trees one day... in another country), 4) discussing that the vitamin manufacturer has a not-so-shiny past, and 5) discussing you can get the same benefits of the vitamin by drinking extra (free) water a day.

Now I basically have 2 choices:
1)  Acknowledge (accept) other people's concerns and experiences. Maybe even re-evaluate the vitamin.
2)  Ignore or make excuses for everything I've read and continue taking my beloved vitamin.

Either way, there is no need to defend the vitamin, to ourselves or to others. Sure, I could get offended that people are saying not-so-nice things about my vitamin and want to 'set the record straight.' Maybe I feel its my civil duty to safeguard this precious, one-of-a-kind vitamin, by insisting how wonderful it is. Maybe I feel its important to cyber-scream at those who haven't taken the vitamin, because they don't understand. Certainly, I have more experience simply because I swallowed it, giving me a higher pedestal than those who have not.

But, wait, isn't the vitamin supposed to help reduce feelings of defensiveness, ego superiority and desiring to change other people and their beliefs? Now what?

Of course there's nothing wrong if someone feels the need to write about a positive, unbiased vitamin experience. But, if you look around the net, you won't find many of those...except maybe on the 'testimonial' page of the vitamin website. A quick google search reveals that many people who love and accept the vitamin often post defensive, self-righteous and biased reviews. Oftentimes, the vitamin-taker even admits they still have the same symptoms they had before taking it (obviously- when you see how mean they can get), but they are so much happier now that the vitamin is in their life. And the best part...all non-takers should ingest the vitamin because it will help them shed their "miserable, meaningless lives."

But, as Sivkrdy said in one sentence, if it was truly a blissful vitamin, there would be no need to recruit, market or defend the vitamin company.

hd

P.S.  Interesting post-thought:   That if this pretend example was a true story, (that we were posting right now about the benefits/intentions/inconsistencies/concerns of the vitamin company), most people reading it would examine more seriously if they should put this vitamin into their bodies....probably more than they examine puting a self-proclaimed Sadhguru into their lives, minds and souls?

P.S.S. I appologize to Sivakrdy for taking over his question. It was a good one and most likely on many peoples' minds :)

Re: Sadhguru and the Isha Foundation

In my last post, I was referring to meditation being 'conscious sleep' only in its simplest form....ie silent awareness.

Without chanting, without praying to deities, without preconceived beliefs, without guided instructions, without controling the breath, etc. When these variables are added in, all sorts of intentions and reactions can occur.

Re: Sadhguru and the Isha Foundation

Karthikshan,

I recently heard a very intelligent comment regarding meditation, with which I agree:

     "Where 'sleep' is unconscious awareness, meditation is conscious sleep." In this regard, I don't think anyone would be against meditation.

My concern is with those who self-declare enlightenment towards an agenda. Jaggi calls himself the Sadhguru, aka God incarnate. Really? Why are we quick to follow people who claim a personal 'spiritual experience?'  Because he speaks so eloquently? Because he says things we agree with? Why do we choose who we will follow...or even listen to?

So, to your question on what I am against:
    I am against blind acceptance to another person's claims of what is true/real or is not true/real.
    I am against blind devotion to another human being who says thinking is bad...while asking me to surrender my soul and bank account to him.
    I am against allowing myself to put aside the mind, as well as the nebulous intuition, that I inherited when I was born.
    I am against any situation that does not allow free thought in questioning authority, others or myself

hd

Re: uSEFUL READING

Hi Isobel,

Sorry to hear what you're going through. Leaving a group that took your mind, trust and money can be difficult. But it's a good step you're taking to find others in your situation.

I'm not familiar with the group you suggest. However, I wonder if you're talking about Guru Maharaji? I've come across his name and a few youtube videos along with ex-member stories in my own guru-group research.

The guru papers is a great resource for those that have questions about guru groups being cultish or money and mind harvesters. I haven't read the whole book but the parts I've read were spot on in regards to the guru group I was involved with. It's also one of the very few books available on the guru phenomenon thats spreading across this country.

Another book you might want to check out is "Stripping the Gurus." It was written by Geoffrey Falk who himself was involved with Yogananda's Self-Realization group...before he became disillusioned. The book is a free download on his site www.strippingthegurus.com

hd

Re: Sadhguru and the Isha Foundation

Yogagyptc,   Your concerns are valid. I, too, was happily involved with Sadhguru's Isha...and then the red flags started popping up.
 
But the death of Viji....here are my thoughts....
 
During the Inner Engineering program, Sadhguru talks about her death with ease. He's smart. 
 
As you sit in a room for hours, listening to him speak containing obvious truths and humerous anecdotes, it is easy to accept his words and logic. Eventually, he starts throwing in harder-to-believe things, things he wants you to accept as truths. Things we never would have believed on the first day of the program....such as solid mercury based lingams, his ability to free trapped ghosts, his ability to know what's on your mind, in your heart and in your future, healing a half-dead lady doctor of heart disease, seeing Gods dancing upon the water, Native American Indians and Yogis instantly recognizing him as enlightened, bliss and enlightenment given to his devotees just by being in his presence, past lives as enightened and psychic yogis, his supreme status of enlightened mystic, and yes, his wife's 'mahasamadhi.'
 
Certainly, after you accept the obvious truths, the embedded exaggerations are easier to swallow. He talked about her death as if mahasamadhi was a common, everyday occurence.  Oh, sure, didn't you know? All the yogi's are doing it! Sadhguru said ...it would be an embarassment if a yogi or self-realized being had to be carried to their graves. True yogis walk to their graves. No proof exists of mahasamadhi except devotee or superstitious native stories.
 
The 'enlightened' gurus:
   J. Krishnamurti died of pancreatic cancer - 90 yrs
   Osho died of heart failure (probably thanks to the drugs) - 58 yrs
   Ramakrishna died of throat cancer - 50 yrs
   Vivekenanda had mult ailments, including asthma and diabetes. Died of stroke - 39 yrs
   Prabhupada died of unknown illness - he had suspicions he was slowly being poisoned by his disciples - 71 yrs
 
So, if the big dogs didn't attain Mahasamadhi, how did Viji get it right? She worked in a bank before she met and married Sadhguru.
 
He says "hundreds" of people witnessed her 'mahasamadhi.'  Again, no proof and no witnesses. Even if someone right now claimed they witnessed her fall dead, that is no proof she chose to leave this plane on her own accord.
 
More questions.... Where is the daughter? Why is she not a Sadhguru devotee? Thousands of people give up their schooling, careers and even families to follow this man....but not his own daughter?
 
Why did Sadhguru get sick with 'unknown' illnesses and almost die in the hospital? (2 times that I've heard of). Sure, the ishas explain it away with 'stresses' on his body due to his 'intense' energy work.  He was so sick that his right-hand people were scrambling to help take over the Isha programs. But wouldn't that defeat the purpose of mahasamadhi, which even his lowly devotee wife easily timed and achieved? His story, now that he's better, is that he magically healed himself of some unknown illness that even the doctors couldn't figure out. Then why was he in the hospital? Why wasn't he in his own hospital? And if he did die, would the story have been that he achieved mahasamadhi?
 
So back to Viji. We have no proof of mahasamadhi with any of the gurus, past or present. Try using the 'mahasamadhi' claim in court if they found your wife dead in your commune in America. But in India, superstitions and shady friends in high places go a loooong way.
 
I think its hard for Westerners to realize how it is India. Ashrams own the governement. Police, attorneys and politicians frequent ashrams and are devotees of one guru or another.  For example, Sai baba. All the accusations of child sexual misconduct and no one will touch the allegations out of devotion or fear.
 
And then, look who Sadhguru hob-nobs with.
 
So murder passing off as mahasamadhi is not as far fetched as we gullible westerners would believe.
 

Re: Sadhguru and the Isha Foundation

Hi isitmytsic,
 
There is a lot of information on the web in regards to your niece's situation. Most of the research I've done has explained a lot to me - of how and why people (myself included) get 'caught up' in these new idealistic group movements.
 
Its common to find young adults attracted to cults, groups, gangs and religious gatherings. There is a need to find that 'perfect' family especially a 'perfect' parent to look up to. One of the things I noticed in Isha, is that most followers are younger (19-25 yrs old), and typically more involved with the movement (ie, volunteering, recruiting, etc). This is nothing new or unique, however. Do a youtube or google search for other guru groups and you'll see lots of young faces.
 
Also, most people attracted to these groups are often intelligent, idealistic, honest and hard-working. These people have enough of an open mind to go searching for 'something else,' yet will become close minded the minute they find something that 'feels right', fills a need, or fits in with their belief system.  
 
About your niece. Its hard to say exactly what is going on in her world. Right now, she's in the honeymoon stage in the guru-disciple relationship. Sadhguru often talks about the love his devotees have for him. And believe me, the fainting and swooning is over the top! You'd think he was Sadhguru Elvis.
 
Right now, there isn't much you can say to convince her otherwise. But you can remind her to keep her mind and eyes open. The mind is the only thing we really have... and to give it up or give it away is a shame. There's nothing wrong with trying out the kriyas for awhile and evaluating their worth from time to time. But there have been, are, and always will be other gurus touting they have the path to enlightenment. Sadhguru and Isha are no different. Many devotees of other guru groups thought (or still think) they have found 'the one' as well.
 
Ashrams and guru movements are big big big business in India...and especially in the west where the big big big money is! 
 
Feel free to PM me if you want any specific details on Isha.
 
hd

Re: Sadhguru and the Isha Foundation

Ellen,
I think it would be an enjoyable and 'enlightening' experience to have a cup of coffee with you one day :)
(Though I might have to bring a dictionary to look up words like "solipsism", lol!)

In your defense, your comment about "ISHA SOAP" was clearly a sarcasm directed at ISHA SOAP....and fully appreciated for the point you were making. And *I* don't think your posts (or anyone else's) posts were about 'guessing' what's going on in Sadhguru's mind.

Randomstu,
I, too, have enjoyed your posts here and elsewhere. But I think you jumped to conclusions about what Ellen was saying. She has been a beacon of light and open discussion on this subject. She has had unique experiences that lend a valuable point of perception that everyone can learn from. And....maybe one day she'll share some of those experiences (a hint and a wink to Ellen, lol!).

---------------------------
Of course no one can truly know what's going on in other people's minds. But when discussing someone controversial, especially one who is raking in the minds and money of countless followers, I think its fair (and necessary) to take a step back, look at his/her words and actions and derive their motives and intentions. Of course, people rarely do this unless it is self-serving. And of course we can (and should) apply the same formula to ourselves.... but rarely do...unless it is, (you guessed it), self-serving.

Banter can be friendly and a way to learn from each other...its not always venomous or hateful. 

Let's keep the 'scrutiny' on Sadhguru................aka: the True Dispeller of Darkness.............

Re: Sadhguru and the Isha Foundation

Kylie,

You're opinions and experiences are valid and appreciated. I wanted to respond to a few things though...

I understand your need to defend Isha - you've invested 7 years and have decided it has helped you. (I invested 3 years and lived through Samyama). But I don't think anyone here is "ranting and raving" against Sadhguru and Isha. Although, even if they did, they have a right. This is a public forum that encourages 'scrutiny' and the sharing of free thought and personal experiences. I have not seen any examples of "hateful suspicion" either.  In fact, if you search the internet, almost all comments about Isha have been made by supporters. And most of the avid anti-isha comments have been made by people like me....who've 'experienced' the program(s).

"There are much more egregious acts going on in the world than yoga.  Perhaps focus more energy where it's really needed"

                 You can not say it is a waste of time or energy for non-supporters to post their comments and not extend the same rules to the supporters    (including yourself)

"Why are you drawing conclusions?  How do you know what someone else is experiencing?  The truth is you haven't a clue." 

                 And yet you say in your same post:

"You see how people around you are stuck in sadness, anger, fear, stress etc and you just want to help--so much unnecessary misery.  Peoples lives being wasted."

                 Seriously...you aren't practicing what you preach. You can't tell someone else not to guess what others are feeling or experiencing and then turn around and claim that all the non-isha's miserable. If you're so perfectly content, then everything and everybody should be perfectly fine for you. No need to change everything "out there"...right? And your comment about "Peoples lives being wasted" is a clear indication of your feelings of superiority and disdain towards non-ishas. Truly sad you spent 7 years of 'peaceful, life changing' yoga and you feel you are worthy enough to judge your fellow humans so harshly.  Sorry to repeat myself, but....this is the exact same attitude we see in cult followers. Holier than thou and pity for the non-devotees. The need to bring the masses into the warm loving embrace of the group so the 'miserables' can see the light and change their ways....and the world will be a better place. And thats the point, people and groups have been trying to do this for centuries. Isha is no different. And the words you say are no different than devotees of other groups too.

               Btw, I've posted this before...even Isha-ites claim they have anger and sadness outbursts for no reason and Sadhguru tells them this is proof that Isha Yoga is working. Isha works if it makes you peaceful and loving or angry and sad. Now there's a win-win claim for ya.

Re: Sadhguru and the Isha Foundation

There's probably no harm in going to one scientology meeting either.

And why not join scientology? There seems to be lots of success stories, social reform, charitable causes, group comraderie and a save-the-world ideology in scientology. There is also a search for a relationship with the divine, or supreme being, while following the teachings of the one true leader...who both claim that enlightenment is scientifically achievable.

Scientology has followers who are doctors, lawyers, students and even famous actors. Scientology has impressive testimonials:

“Scientology has helped my marriage. We have learned to understand our children as fellow human beings rather than yell and scream at them. Scientology is the best single thing we have done and we are now in control of our lives. What more could one ask?” -TB (scientologist)
“After the Purification Rundown, I was more aware of my environment around me and I felt more alive, with much more energy." -WM (scientologist)

Scientology helped Tom Cruise beat dyslexia, made Jerry Seinfeld a better comedian, helped Juliette Lewis face her fears....

If the word scientology was not used in this post, it would have looked like the typical advertisement for Isha yoga

Re: Sadhguru and the Isha Foundation

But the isha devotees DO think isha yoga is the special and best way.
And they DO think they are better than they were before they found isha yoga.

And SJV says his way is the best and fastest (not the only) way to the divine.

I'm glad you noticed how the teacher is a complete carbon copy of SJV. The isha volunteers explain this, that through grace, SJV actually does the teaching - through the teacher. At the dyana linga temple, they say that SJV magically morphs through the volunteers to play music or sing a song to praise the lingam. There are altars to SJV all over the ashram.  Isha devotees are encouraged to chant devotional songs that hail SJV and shiva.

So if anyone is still wondering what Isha yoga is really all about....

Re: Sadhguru and the Isha Foundation

Regarding BSP

No, they don't drug the food! But if the objective was to get group control, spacey minds and hypnotic persuasion, they wouldn't have to.

There are lots of other ways to do that. :)

But all in all, if you're curious, I wouldn't say you shouldn't go. I'm the curious type myself and I'm glad for the experience.  If anything, just to be able to post on this forum and offer another point of view on Isha.

Did I have 'experiences'? yes
Were they real? I have no idea.
Do I think I achieved anything real or permanent? Doubt it...but I'm leaning towards no.

BSP is basically a self-propelled emotional roller coaster. If you want to ride the coaster, you can fuel it with your own emotions and beliefs. Otherwise, you'll feel or experience nothing special. It really is up to you. I saw people going through emotional fits, while others stood around rolling their eyes.

Just keep your eyes and ears open (like you have been) and you will be fine.
You can PM me and I'll answer any questions you might have.

Re: Sadhguru and the Isha Foundation

Seeker,
You seem to have done your homework. I have no doubt you continue to use your 'logical mind' to interpret your life and situations you find yourself in. You have described an accurate overview of Isha.
 
As you noticed, SJV doesn't say anything new. I completely agree with you, Isha is repackaged pranayams with a price tag. I don't mind paying money to learn something new either. But, they should not be marketing (and selling) the meditation as a path to enlightenment, bliss or the answer to the world's problems. This is the religious way. A true spiritual person gives the gift and does not sell it. (Btw, anyone who can not afford Isha is turned away). The doom and gloom stories that befall anyone who practices these without paying their $300 is a common threat to keep the money flowing.
 
All self-help groups, religions or guru gatherings have a sense of cohesion, social revolution and comraderie unto themselves. Ask anyone in the military...a mutual belief in a 'cause' will foster this sense of community. Patriotism is a group-think cohesion. I'm not saying that comraderie is bad...its just not exclusive to Isha.
 
Sure, isha-ites are quite nice to be around...at least in sathsangs, group practices and isha gatherings. See the same people in their daily life and you will question what Isha Yoga has really done for them. They still have the same problems, the same emotional issues, the same inner drama in their lives that they had before. They still believe they have the one true path and judge everyone else as outsiders needing to be saved. They may, once in awhile, be able to muster a smile when someone cuts them off in the grocery line. But the inner turmoil is still very much alive. In fact, some devotees have asked SJV why they get angry or agitated very quickly or without reason after years of practicing Isha yoga. SJV anwers that this is actually a good sign, that the devotee is breaking though his/her illusions. What?!  So, if the experience is peace, it proves isha is working. But if the experience is anger, resentment and irrationality, it also proves isha is working? How convenient.
 
 
When I first saw the quote below, I labeled it as being from an obviously destructive cult. Nothing like Isha so it wouldn't pertain to me. However, the more I looked objectively at Isha-ites and the isha mission statement, the more I began to appreciate the quote. I feel it is worth posting here since one can not argue the fact of Sadhguru-enthralled devotees that recruit with fervor...
 
 
“When you meet the friendliest people you have ever known, who introduce you to the most loving group of people you’ve ever encountered, and you find the leader to be the most inspired, caring, compassionate and understanding person you’ve ever met, and then you learn the cause of the group is something you never dared hope could be accomplished, and all of this sounds too good to be true-it probably is too good to be true! Don’t give up your education, your hopes and ambitions to follow a rainbow.”
 - Jeannie Mills, Ex-member of The People’s Temple, later found murdered
 
 
No, I'm in no way saying that isha is a destructive cult that spikes the kool-aid. My point is that a casual observer can see the similarities of the group mission and devotee behaviors between isha and other 'save the world' groups. (Or save yourself first thus in turn you will save the world...its the same idea)
 
 
 

Re: Sadhguru and the Isha Foundation

Ytseekmystic,

- I've been researching the mystique of guru-dom for awhile now. Even though the information available can be overwhelming, I find glaringly specific common patterns throughout the different guru and group systems. Eventually, I will post those similarities between the guru groups, starting with the devotee testimonials.

One of the many persuasion techniques used by advertisers, marketers and politicians, is using someone else's testimonial to get your money, your loyalty or your vote. Testimonials are the main recruiting tools in guru groups, religions and cults. Some people use the testimonials (theirs and others) to prove their way is right. Testimonials easily become a new source of beliefs.

SJV encourages testimonials in all his programs and sathsangs. Yet testimonials of spiritual experiences are nebulous, emotional and personally biased. Yet they certainly enforce the group belief system.

- Btw, becoming a guru is really no big effort. India has millions of them and the smarter ones simply make their way to the west...to the land of milk and honey....to the pockets of the wealthy unsuspecting Americans. All those gurus in India, and they haven't solved any of India's problems....  
 
India has:
A high degree of business and political corruption. Caste discrimination. Children marriages. Massive population. Disabling economy and poverty. Its fair share of crimes, rapes, kidnappngs, drugs and women and children trafficking. In fact, India had the title of murder capital of the world in 2006 and 2007. Of course, every society has its problems, but why do the gurus value the American soul over the Indian soul (or the soul of the African, European, Mexican, etc)?

Re: Sadhguru and the Isha Foundation

Osho and the ego have been mentioned on unrelated topics. Thought I'd post a few things regarding them both in the same sentence. :)
 
SJV, as well as most gurus, teach surrender (usually to them) and letting go of the ego. Osho taught the same thing. Until a few months before his death. Perhaps it was the drugs talking, but the great enlightened master that has thousands of followers, finally admitted that the ego can not be dropped, it can only be observed.
 
It doesn't take any special meditation techniques to experience the 'ego-less' mind. We experience this state everyday when we 'zone out', day dream, watch movies, take a test, exercise, ride a roller coaster, take a nap, etc. If one sits to meditatie and lets go of thoughts, maybe brief moments of ego-lessness will occur. But just like all the other examples, once the practice is stopped, the ego steps right back in and its business as usual. Of course, there's mindfulness which will put the ego on the back burner at times, but it doesn't destroy the ego, it observes the ego.
 

Re: Sadhguru and the Isha Foundation

There are some online references that Jaggi had studied under Maharishi Mahesh Yogi and Werner Erhard.

I don't know if there is any proof and SJV insists he is self-realized with no guru lineage, yet its an interesting speculation as his meditation/greedy guru style is rather similar to MMY and his business and persuasion techniques are similar to WE.

One of SJV's meditation techniques is mantra on a hindu deity name...just like TM mantras. This mantra is never to be discussed to another person, even to another isha devotee. Why not?

Also, there are many online discussions regarding the similarities between SJV and Osho. A devotee asked SJV a question regarding the Osho similarities, asking if perhaps Osho, after being murdered, had entered SVJ's body. 

http://www.kavitachhibber.com/main/main.jsp?id=sadhguru-Aug2007 

This kind of question shows the willingness devotees have to believe just about anything, never mind the conspiracy theory that his guru was murdered.. And, I am quite certain, if SJV told this person that Osho's soul travelled to another galaxy, played poker with a few aliens and then entered his body, that devotee would believe it....even posting in this forum that our logical minds and egos are getting in the way of our enlightenment. :)

Re: Sadhguru and the Isha Foundation

Ellen,
I also had the same problem as you with the left side of the screen cutting off in this forum. I stumbled across a fix.
Try checking 'Compatability View' under the Tools menu

And btw, I had no problem with your natural world references, regarding beliefs. I just added that people's true inner nature rarely changes while
following these gurus.

Another thing that 'bothers' me about Isha and guru-worship...
We are supposed to be giving up our sense of self, or ego if you will, in order to find divine bliss. But isn't it our self, or ego, that has determined which path to walk, or which guru to follow? Isn't it the ego that tells other people how wonderful his/her guru is and tries to recruit others to join? Isn't it the ego that defines 'spiritual experiences' as real and true without questioning them?

Re: Sadhguru and the Isha Foundation

Ellen,
 
Thanks for the great post....

I agree! So, In summary:
 
I recruit you = I legitimize my belief system = Yay! Now I'm right! (and you're wrong and you get saved/converted to my way of thinking)

Who does it benefit?  The ego, the wallet, the group.....but especially the leader!
 
 

Re: Sadhguru and the Isha Foundation

Yes, but haven't read it.  It's about his intimate relationship with the author's mother, right?
 
 
And yes, it does seem odd.....
we unenlightened people are not supossed to 'bother' about the person searching 4 hours for the tie, 
but its ok for an enlightened person to 'bother' 4 hours over a tie?

Re: Sadhguru and the Isha Foundation

Mystics Musings is Sadhguru's book.

I can not find the girl vs. tie story anywhere outside of Mystics Musings. Not to say that it is true or not. Only Sadhguru seems to know of this story.

However, J. Krishnamurti is quoted to say:

"Meditation is not a system, a practice, a discipline taught to you by another. It is not a repetitive formula of mantras, of breathing regularly, of sitting in a certain posture, practicing awareness, practicing attention - these are all utterly mechanical."

Anyone that has done Inner Engineering can see the contradiction JK vs. SJV. 

We can either interpret the meaning of JK or SJV's words to fit into our views.
Or, we can always fall back on the catch-all guru phrase... 'logical mind of the mere mortal can not understand the ways of the guru.'
How convenient.

Re: Sadhguru and the Isha Foundation

They are only mutually exclusive when we practice them both at the same time.
Preaching and following.....Self-proclaimed knower and seeker.

Often, we teeter-totter between the two, adopting whichever serves our purpose at the current moment. But, still, within a time frame of a certain subject matter, (speaking here about gurus and god-men) we generally apply both at the same time.

Ex -   the missionaries, who try to convert others to his/her religion.
         the devotees, who try to convert others to his/her guru
         the new ageists, who give sermons on the law of attraction

Preaching a subject yet still following a teacher at the same time.

I'm not posting online to banter back and forth regarding the meaning of life and our purpose within it. I am not asking for advice on how to deal with my life or my questions regarding it. That is something we can only do for ourselves.

My point is to show the devotee-guru relationship as it pertains to Sadhguru...or any other guru for that matter. To point out the dilemma that automatically occurs when someone follows a guru, decides this is the right path (based on a subjective questionable experience) and tries to convince others they have found the way.

I ask myself, what is the motivation to recruit others into a belief system? This is why I just couldn't recruit people for Isha. In fact, very few people in my life even knew I was in Isha for so long. Yet it is considered a sadhana to recruit others into Isha. I guess I failed miserably with that sadhana... :)
many Isha followers can now argue that I didn't give myself fully to this sadhana, sabotaging my own spiritual growth.

Re: Sadhguru and the Isha Foundation

What's the purpose of writing in this forum about SJV or any other god-men if we don't bother about anything?

The reason I write on this site is to show the other side of the 'smoke and mirrors.'  Yes, as Ellen wrote...beliefs are a need. They will change so why defend or depend on them? The smoke and mirrors satisfy those who need them at that moment in their life but it is superficial and undependable. Your true nature will not change ....or even be seen...by following some one else you put on a pedestal.

The human condition -
We are so quick to pronounce the we know so much, defending our 'knowledge' with intensity and fancy words. (Knowledge being our beliefs, teachings and our experiences). Even juding others based on our limited mind.

Yet, we are so quick to pronounce there are gurus out there who know more than we do, have the 'way' and will make our lives better if we surrender to them. Even repeating their life stories, or preaching their sermons to justify why we follow these gurus.

These 2 traits are mutually exclusive.....what a dilemma.

Re: Sadhguru and the Isha Foundation

Vaidy,
If I point out the behavior patterns of the isha devotees...that means I am comparing myself to them? Now that's a leap in logic.

Using your logic then, you point out your belief in my behavior pattern (i.e. rat racing)....which means you are comparing yourself to me?

Basically, you can use your leap of logic claim that I am rat racing,
but I can not claim my observations that isha meditators are rat racing?

Re: Sadhguru and the Isha Foundation

Yes, study of the self!  Both Ytseekmystic and Ellen mention it (thanks). Semantics aside, I think you guys are saying similar things.

People are so quick to judge other people's experiences as right/wrong, real/not real. But how many people look at and question their own experiences? So if I have a mystical experience, it must be real? Even SJV says physical experiences should be questioned - every physical sensation we have (sight, sound, touch, etc) is filtered through our mind, social beliefs, world views, etc. I happen to agree with this. We establish what is real based on comparing our experience to what we already believe or have been taught.

How would internal non-physical experiences be any different? Isha people keep saying "experience him and you will know." Again, this is a common claim used by devotees around the world following thouisands of different masters, gurus and god-men. Many people 'sit in the grace of SJV's presence' and feel nothing. So, it must be their ego or the wall that gets in the way, right?

Like I've said in an earlier post, I've had my fair share of earth-shaking experiences in and out of Isha. So, do I get to claim they are real? Why can't I question them? Many people see the Virgin Mary in a piece of toast. Is that experience any more real than an Isha-ite's experience of Shiva? Depends on who you believe or which book you agree with.

I've been collecting devotee experiences and testimonials from many different groups. Mostly to understand the group dynamics that hold people in the sway of the master, as well as understand my own experiences. Interesting, there really is nothing new or different with how these leaders control thier followers and how the followers justify their bondage to the master. I will be posting a few examples on here.

Re: Sadhguru and the Isha Foundation

Vaidy,
I already mentioned in my post that I allowed SJV to publicly ridicule me, taking it like a champ and even questioning myself.  I look back now and laugh at myself. If you want to call that ego and brand it as something bad... go ahead. But just like you, I made excuses for his comments, tone and manner in which he spoke to me as well as others. Justifying his approach and comments as "something we need to shake our ego". The guru knows best right? 

Don't forget, I made excuses for all the red flags that popped up...staying in Isha for years. Sounds like you are making excuses too, agreeing with things you have read or heard that fit your idea of reality. 

I'm not sure where the ego definition gets crossed. I'm online admitting how I was duped for years, losing faith in myself and accepting someone else's idea of reality.

I never said anything about "rat-racing" so I can no comment that part of your post. But I was referring to the tendencies of Isha-ites feeling superior to others inside and outside of the group.